Streamers

0:01 Hello, everybody. Welcome to Plug In for Player 4. I'm your host Mark, and I'm here with Ethan and Braden. Say hi guys. It's me, Brandon. What are you? What are you? What am I? I don't know. I'm Brandon, I guess. OK, cool. I'm just a dip shit in the chair. And I'm me. Well then. You're welcome. Have you guys been doing lately? I'm me. OK, how about you, Mr. Sprint?

0:35 Stop. Keep a.

0:40 Fucking top man like me. Me, Jane. You, Jane. I am Squidward. You're a Squidward. Is there anybody else who's name is good word that I had to be aware of?

1:04 Well, I guess since he asked me the question, since you answered an interesting way, I'll. Answer it seriously after you talk. OK, you go. Oh, me. OK. Yeah, put your right spot. Well, I got a new phone and it's awesome having a phone that doesn't, you know, I get home at like, well, with it at like 15% my old one, this new one, I get home and it's at like 75. It's fucking amazing. Yes, Sir, Yeah. Very amazing, I love it to bits and it's not cracked and it's super I was. Going to say you needed a new damn I. Did both the front and the back were cracked horribly?

1:41 When I can see the internals of your phone, there's a problem. It's just easy access, I don't know what you want. Look, he was just going for that old 2000 style with the clear plastic. But it's not plastic. This doesn't make sense. Also, as of this week, I think yeah, the Steam sales going on. Oh. Yeah, this is recording. Yeah, yeah. And recording. Yep, as of and I got a business, Brandon got a business, Jack got a business. I'm having a blast with it. We fucked that final boss yesterday. Meteor is bust.

2:26 Oh it is. It's busted as shit. Dude, alright, so it's a Co-op, I'm not going to get too into it, but it's a Co-op roguelike roguelike where you and up to 4, up to three friends can dive down into the abyss. It's a lot like Bioshock meets like Gunfire Reborn because you know, it looks like what you would see in Bioshock and then it plays just like how Gunfire Bourne would. Yep. Oh, interesting. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. It really is. And also, Happy October, Happy spoopy month. Spoopy. Spook my pants.

3:06 Hey Spoopy. Don't you spoopy your pants? Why not? Because that's your, your you're an adult. Can't that mean you know? He's in a, he's in a business meeting. He's like, Oh no, I just poopy into my pants. You know that. Be some shit. I think I'd actually. I'd actually. No, I. Feel like this is the most awkward and true ever. Yeah, getting mad getting. Mad thinking outside the box here. I'm Yeah. Thinking outside this you know, this little square with a logo. On it breaking the 5th. Wall breaking the 4th player.

3:53 We are. This is bad. Yeah.

3:59 I mean, yeah, I, I, I would say some dumb shit in a meeting. I would, yeah. I would say some dumb shit just randomly come. OK, OK. OK, I probably won't go that far. But I. I, I would be, I definitely, it's hard for me to take meetings seriously, but I mean, like if I have to, I will. But yeah. But it's just, it's just fun to just unmute and just say some shit and then meet yourself back in. I get it. I get it. But, well, this is your episode, Mark. What are we doing today? Well, I've had this topic for kind of a while now and now that it's kind of two months out of the outside of the fact, I guess it's now or never really, today we're going to be talking about streamers and our thoughts on their position in this sort of like the gaming ecosystem.

4:58 Because what what really brought it about was kind of the general discussion of streamers around the the Battlefield 6 beta. And then I saw a little bit more discourse about how people think and feel as from both sides of the argument, as well as insights from actual gaming companies themselves too. And it's just something I think we can have an interesting discussion on because, you know, streamers have been around for, I guess, what was it, 5 years, six years? When, when did they really kind of pick off?

5:39 Was like, that was like 20 tens, wasn't it? I mean, I would say, so how, how, how old is Twitch? That's going to be like a. Question. Let's. Fuck like 12 years maybe at this point. I. 'Cause that's the real. Question, which is 14 years old, OK. You're kind of right there. I was pretty close, yeah. Yeah, you're, you're pretty close. So I mean, I would say maybe half of Twitch's life cycle, so maybe like 7 years ago. Yeah, that's when it really started doing mainstream. Like 10 years ago was more about YouTube.

6:13 Yeah, if we're being honest. Yeah, yeah, the the very early 20 tens was mostly just YouTube. Then halfway, at least halfway through the 20 tens, you really started seeing streaming. Right. Because like. Kick off more and more. Because I would say like 10 years ago is when YouTube was like, no, actually, I would say

6:33 2025. Thirteen years ago, actually. Cause like yeah, 2020. 2012, like around Black Ops 2, like that's when like you gaming was at its biggest on YouTube. Yeah. And then once that started to fade away, like now, now today there's way more variety on YouTube, yeah. Then like obviously the front page, yeah 'cause it was just just gaming montages or whatever was popular at the time. But like since I think like the the slow decline of that to like today's YouTube has been like more people going to Twitch, yes.

7:02 Because like more people doing alternatives. Yes, yeah, because like people are still playing games over there. But like you don't make as much money on YouTube anymore, just doing video game stuff. And then my goal isn't to talk about YouTube, but just like the fact that like, yeah, now that we're seeing like less game stuff, the people that do know about them are on Twitch. Well, anyways, I guess I can go ahead and get us started off by I wrote kind of a large prompt for this, just kind of prepping us, getting us into the topic and being able to have us kind of formulate our ideas around it.

7:41 So let me just go ahead and read what I have written here. In the wake of the Battlefield 6 open beta, a point of contention in the gaming community has been brought to the mainstream attention. The position of streamers in the community and their impact on the gaming culture as a whole. At this time, the debate revolves around the supposed influence streamers and professional gamers have on game studios. Impact changes made to competitive gaming. The casual gaming community argues that streamers have an overemphasized impact on the decisions made to game balancing to promote higher skill based competition to casual games, effectively removing the floor for lower skilled players.

8:25 They argue that such decisions ultimately ruin the core experience for the game and lead to lower player retention and thus the lower lifespan to the game itself. Streamers argue that their positions in their respective communities allow themselves to be useful tools for game developers in order to focus attention on specific issues that the community faces in their games. Many argue that they help improve the overall quality of life of the games, allow for developers to focus on what players actually want in their games, and that their own micro communities offer access points for new players to discover new games they might want to play.

9:05 With the the two of you heavy backgrounds as both casual gamers and streamers, what are your thoughts on this debate? Should streamers have this influence in their communities to help dictate changes to mechanics and balancing? I know, open the floor. Fucking lightning strikes everywhere. Death sentence immediately. Jesus. OK. Well, that is silly. Wow, holy shit we're just shutting. Right. And be like, all right, I'm going to have my college writing skills and I've got the full prompt. Here's Ethan Charge again.

9:38 Hellfire. Brimstone. Armageddon. Armageddon face God like judgments may at last deter to. Be schmitted anyway. Honestly, I, I can I can see both sides, but I mainly see like the on the streamers side where because the point is like you also like want to build hyper on a game or like also like because they're you can only put on so many trailers without spoiling everything. Fair. And more often than not, like let's say day one, when streamers like, you know, streamers buy a game day one and, you know, start playing it, people can go on and watch those streamers play those games and then they can get more of a look of what the game actually looks like, what to expect with it.

10:28 Yeah, because like, you could see like all the action in the world in the trailer on the Steam page or the Xbox page or, you know, Nintendo or something, whatever it's on. But the game could be really fucking boring, and it's just a walking simulator between all of these fights. For example, let's say Skyrim, like, yeah, you can fight a dragon, but you walk so much between us. Like, yes. So you can kind of see the unseen that they don't show you, which can help, you know, lead to sales or not. Yeah.

11:00 But also I can see why, like, in terms of like Bill, 'cause you, you said like what? Like meta stuff or like builds, right? Yeah, so it's like meta meta ideas or like balancing changes or if we want to focus back on to Battlefield 6, who was who was the one streamer that was getting a lot of Flack, XQCI think trying to say that it wasn't enjoyable, that he needs a battle pass and stuff like that. Well here's the thing, just just go out and have fun. Like it's, it's literal war. Buildings are collapsing around you.

11:44 Just fucking enjoy it. This is it. This isn't no Call of Duty. Yeah, no. A lot of the takes that I that I saw people were having at the time where you know, this was what was he a fortnight or a, a, a pub G He was on a text streamer. Something like he he was. On and he was playing a vastly different game than what he's used to I. Think he was also big like on Overwatch with. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. I think it was Overwatch, but people were calling him out saying hey, you're not familiar with this game genre and how the community is.

12:18 Yeah. You can't necessarily be making pushes for battle passes and microtransactions in a game that people don't really want it in. Cause like, cause 'cause Battlefield is more is, is more than it's just far more team cooperative. It's just, yeah, it's, it's more than just shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, die, respond, shoot, shoot. Die like you have to pull your objective. You really do and like you. Really have to play into your role. It's basically Fortnite 50V50. I've played I think it was Battlefield 1 four, one of the two with Jack and like there was like a sniper class and like yeah, you could just take it like if you died and respond and like you were fast enough when the battleship was there, you could just straight up use the battleship.

13:08 Like this is way more than just your average shooter. Yeah, this is more than even Titanfall 2 that I'm comfortable with. Yeah. But anyway, like getting back to streamers. Like I, I know that like a lot of streamers will like use meta builds and whatnot, but like, there's also a ton of streamers that will use fun builds and it's just kind of on the player to decide which one they want to do. But it's also in the human nature to be competitive and to find the most broken thing or the, you know, like what's like the strongest available gun or build or whatever.

13:45 Yes, yeah. What about you, Brandon? What are your thoughts? So they're pretty similar to Ethan's. There are there's always going to be a good and bad side to this. And like the the good side, what I like about streamers is you can have a like a new studio with a new IP that a streamer, you know, if they play their game, can help it grow and actually go, you know, get it out there. And that's probably one of the most powerful things you can have as a game studio, being able to get especially a new one, getting your game out there for everyone to see.

14:33 But yeah, I know with the the bad side of it, like, again, you can be competitive that that's in human nature. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But I just I my take on is I don't like when streamers push the whole meta shit. Yeah, where some will be like, you know, you this is you need to use this or you're not going to do well. Yeah. Right. And then it's not and they're like, OK, cool. So now you get to all these people that that play this game, they're have this weapon, these builds and like someone like me who's a casual person may not really have a chance.

15:14 Yeah, now I guess it it's debatable on like, you know what competitive game, you know, 'cause like Call of Duty and Battlefield are totally separate. Oh yeah, definitely. They're shooters. Call of Duty is a mindless go shoot. There's. Well, at least modern Call of Duty is a. Modern call. Yeah, there's so much. Battlefield there's more of a emphasis on team and objective. Yeah. And just know you need to know what you're doing. Like you, you could be the best player in the world and all you focus on is killing your opponents and then your team still loses because you failed to actually help with the objectives.

15:59 Yeah. And that's that's the thing with Battlefield. You have to be. You have to be helpful your. Performance isn't based so much on kill death ratio. No, it's based. On unlike a lot of other games. It's based on your team. You gotta, you have to help. Yeah, that's the, you know, the whole point. And like Battlefield can be fun. I mean, I've had my fun with Battlefield, especially three. I I liked 3A lot. I think that was the one I played the most. I never got a chance to actually experience Battlefield.

16:28 It looked really cool from a lot of the the destruction tech and whatnot. It's it's, I would say it's, it's, it's like it's a Call of Duty fun. But even then, like, you know, from a, from a beginner standpoint, like it just looks fun. Yeah. Like if you play Call of Duty, you can totally get into it, but it's also it's own different type of fun. Yeah. As well, the only thing that like I always kind of didn't like and then this is just a a personal preference this is that the game's fault is the huge maps.

16:58 I'll be fair, but you know when you're when you're having player says this is that size, you kind of need it. Yeah, you're going to need going to have like 6464, you know, like, yeah, you need a huge ass map. But I guess I've just that my personal preference is having like smaller maps, but Battlefield is kind of the one that's done that right. Yeah. And then also, you're not always on foot. You could fly a. Jet you could fly. Yeah, there's vehicles and shit and like, that's pretty cool. And have you seen the trick shot videos?

17:32 Oh, yeah, The tank just flies up into the air. She was just flying straight this way. Yeah. Like that's that's how you take advantage of game beginnings. Yeah. Or if if you really want to think about it, Battlefield 2046 where you could take the hovercraft up the side of the building.

17:56 Oh my God, I forgot about that. That's. Funny, I will. I will say though, counterpoint, what about the streamers that like play these Mmos or, you know, those types of games that, you know, have a long lasting community like Path of Exile or, you know, what's that? Runescape. Yeah, like there's obviously everything is discovered in the game. Yeah. It's more like they have the metal bills. They have the best stuff. What do you guys like? That's my question. What do you think about that? Because like, you know, especially like I'm thinking of Path of Exile 'cause there's a streamer I watch that played Risk of Rain too, that swapped over to Path of Exile 2 I think.

18:39 OK, I think two. Yeah, yeah, 2. And there's this whole whole, what is it? Skill tree? Yeah, this skill tree. I'm. Have you seen it? I've seen, I've seen the skill. Tree. It's fucking massive. Yeah, massive. I'm not sure how many points you get. I'm not sure how it works, but he was like, oh, look like wand or staff or something. And he was using this like I think it was a calculator.

19:09 But yeah, he was he was using some sort of extension where you would put in, OK, what about this? And then I'm not sure how it worked, but neither. OK, what stamps we got? So you typed in staff and then it would show here's all the Staffs or something named with staff in it. And I'm sure you could like theory craft. Oh yeah, build crafting and what? Not but yeah, like just those those long lasted communities that, you know, kind of just know everything and they will help new players. Yeah, though those streamers are the ones that I'm, I'm pretty fond of, especially for long standing games where you have communities already built up and that's, that's the kind of stuff that personally I'm, I'm very supportive of.

19:52 No, for me personally, I, I don't have much of a background in streaming. I find it kind of hit or miss and I I see a lot more of the. Problem. In my opinion, I see a lot more problems than benefits. Like I, I, I don't remember who what the what game studio was, but they were saying that they, they were a very small indie game studio and all of a sudden they had a huge streamer actually take a look at their game. And what happened was because the streamers community is so large, it became the streamer actually made more money off of the game that the actual studio did.

20:43 Because while the idea of bringing in people as a viewers, as an audience, and as free marketing can help many companies, a lot of times these people just watch the streamer play. Then they just go about their day and no seals are made. Yeah. So you could actually run into situations where streamers make more money off of the product than you do. So, so I, I, I, I'm very prone to see a lot of these issues that don't quite get brought up. That's a good point. I didn't actually. Really think about that because what was going on in my head that I haven't talked about yet is what I don't like is, and this is just the nature of games, yeah, the constant revolving door of just hype.

21:34 It's like, here's here's Red Dead Redemption 2, so everybody buys that, everyone plays it. Oh, Jedi Survivor, Fuck Red Dead. We're playing Jedi Survivor, Stream that, play that, whatever. Like it's basically chasing numbers. Yeah, for for a lot of streamers it is literally just follow the hype train and then you just keep moving on. Like there's there's two types of streamers, which is the like that kind and then there's the kind that find their niche. And they got to hunker down on a. Yeah, whether it's whether it's a single game, like for example, the Borderlands community, Yeah, that's a very tight knit community.

22:11 They rarely ever go outside of Borderlands, Yes. Or like, for example, there's a there's another streamer that I watch and he all he does is Rogue Lakes. Nice. I think there's two of them. But yeah, there's like you find your niece or you chase all the views. But I think at that point, like, even if you do find success,

22:36 you're going to have to find success or you can fund yourself with all these games coming out. Yeah. And that's another problem in itself. Like there's only only so many people to watch these people. Yeah. And there's only so much money that can go around per person, Yes.

22:57 That's my part where I hate streamers. Yeah, it it again, it really just depends on the person because it it is a very personal thing to be streaming and whatnot. It is no for surely I've I've tried it. It's fun when you know, when you have interaction, yeah. Yes. But other than that, it's just what am I doing? Yeah, I I can, I can understand, you know, a streaming for fun and make it really easy to get clips for our whatever. Yeah. Too many. Man, I mean you would just hit record like, oh, something funny happened.

23:43 Oh yeah, I'm like quick as shit. Dude, you just stop moving. I know you're on the recording. Oh yeah. Yeah, see, you know, you know, Yeah, when I when I'm. I stop moving. You stop saying anything. I already know you're recording something. Oh yeah. Because it's, I'm so used to doing that for like the Xbox days, yeah, yeah. And like my computer, yeah man, just fucking literally Xbox button record. Yeah, I, I can't help myself, 'cause they're just, there's some, there's just been some buck shit that has happened just out of the just out of nowhere.

24:15 Yeah that you'd never think would happen. Yeah. And then upload those to Twitch, which, you know, I mean should be, you know, streaming on Twitch. But I think the the clips were something, it just was fun. That's a nice little compilation. But again, that's like even like with the streaming thing, I kind of got burnt out from putting the clips up. You know, I get that. You know I was. Also, with my nature, I get burnt out of games. Yeah, yeah, it's that one meme of I've had your fun, goodbye, and it's Sid throwing the.

24:47 Oh yeah. In the transfer whatever off. Just dropping the. I don't want to play with you. And it goes. To a different game like that's me. That's yeah, like I can. Honestly, that's I, I kind of applaud you for that because that's actually healthy. That's how, that's honestly how the game community should be is, oh, you get a product that you get enjoyment out of it until you've had your fill of it and then you move on. Like that's the healthy thing about it. That's what a lot of a lot of life service companies don't understand anymore.

25:25 I mean, I can, I can go into this ad nausea in a separate episode, whatever. Yeah. But basically I do play for fun, but I also play for achievements once I get all the achievements done, yeah. Drop. Yeah, literally this unceremoniously, but. That's that's another topic. I'm not getting into it. Yeah. We already know about your achievement things we know. I know I have 4000 of them, yeah. I know you do. It's like, fuck. I mean, I applaud you for that and that I will say. It's I can't some days where it's a mental struggle.

26:03 Oh yeah, I will say. I'm already mentally struggling up in this head, man. It's like a fucking hamster on a wheel. I He's struggling. Because he's fat. There's an old. Hamster that's already lived longer than most. OK, but here's the thing. It's only three years old too. Here's the thing, he's already survived the the half life of all because it's just. Tragic animals. How did it not have a heart attack or diet? Not get shoved in a microwaving Oh. My God. No. Ready. Oh the fuck up. Wait, wait, wait.

26:47 Jesus Christ. You know it's true. Oh my God, man, I just now that's all I see in my head. You first, you know that just exploded.

27:02 You want orange and white? Hair.

27:07 Why? So. That clock crossed the fucking line. Jesus Christ, you. Killed Gerald. Gerald. Whatever. Gerald the Guinea pig. Oh, that's so sad. It is. OK, What the hell were you going to say before you decided to blow up a hamster? Oh yes, the classic throw a hamster into a microwave joke. No idea. It's good.

27:41 It's gone off in the wind. OK, back on track. Where the fuck were we? Well, were you going to say? Anything I No, I don't know you. Don't remember? Fuck. You were, you were saying something about you kind of got burnt out. Oh, that's right. Yeah, There it is. This is still off topic so I'm not going to get too far a joke, but if you already. Talked about a ten runster, where the fuck can we go? If you gave me your profile, Steam profile for a year, you have like 500 games. Yeah, I'm sure I could get 81 a year.

28:18 I could see it. Yeah, I got, I mean. Dude, you got Nekuwaifu's Mosaic four, 100% it in four. Hours. What are we bringing that up? I'm gonna bring it up 'cause I'm like, holy shit, 100% achieve a game in four hours. I mean it, it's impressive. Jack and I be Jack and I first made fun of you just for the fact that of that game. And then we saw the play time of the achievement. We're like holy shit. That no, that was something when you showed us that way, you're like. Oh yeah dude, 4 hours. Like, wait a minute.

28:56 Like that's, that's commendable man. I mean considering it's a that's a white poop game. It's, it's a very repeatable game. It's let me just click the screen and that's it. That makes sense and why you got all the achievements so quick. Yeah, like the gameplay I mean. Again though, that the fact that you you got the game, you're like all right, time to see this through to the engine. It'll only took you 4 hours. Pretty damn good. Pretty damn good I'm. Not ashamed. You shouldn't be. Nope. Only a tad bit.

29:32 Oh, OK. Only a tad bit. Only a tad bit. Yeah, let me stream it real quick since we're on this topic. No, God. God I. Think you'd get? Banned just twitch like. I'm very. Loud take your waifu and fuck right off. But yeah, no, I got I got burnt out with streaming because it was just like. Yeah, like. You either have to have the drive to make a career of it or you just. If you can make it a. Career. If you can make your career better, you just don't much. Here's the thing that doesn't get talked about a lot.

30:14 Like you see all the big success on Twitch on I think kick now, but. Yeah, I, I don't think kick so much because that's really still just kind of like a or or or is it? Is it different than kick the messaging you have? Because I know that's like a pedophile cess ball, Yeah. Not the messaging app. OK, so it's it's 3. Different applications. Yeah, there's a, there's a. It's it's basically a Twitch rival. It's it's literally spelled like you would think. OK like KICK not TIK no. OK, not that one. No, we don't talk about that one.

30:49 Yeah, we don't talk about that one. That one's. Fucked but. The streaming. Service for some reason. It I think it has better discovery cause twitch has none. That's that's the problem. That's the problem, unless you have. Yeah. Maybe 10 viewers a stream, you're not getting discovered. There's no like, oh, look at these viewers that have look at these. Maybe they have 2 billion people watching them. Maybe they have 10. If you have any less than that, you're not getting found. I'm sorry. And I've tried on and off for three years and every time I got burnt out.

31:24 Like this is not fun. I want to, I'm streaming because I want to talk with people. I want to interact with people. Yes. Even if I had let's say 0 followers but I got 7 random people in the world every day as long as they can speak English. I'd be cool with that. Yeah, that's. It's that that's sort of an industry problem where if you don't have traction, you don't have value. Because it's always on the on the front page. It's always strimmers that are big, yeah. Like. That's that's how Twitch makes their money.

31:59 I mean, yes, I get it. But Amazon, you, you keep sustaining the larger users, and then they'll just keep bringing in the money. Again, applying the same logic though, there's only so many people you know. But yeah, sorry, so much money per person that can buy games. So all these constant revolving door games coming out. Yeah, there's also so many people that can watch, so many other people. Yeah, yes. So. You. On on the side that yes, people can't get discovered, there's also the other side of there's why people can't get discovered.

32:31 Yeah, plus the discoverability into which sucks anyway. Like I'm not sure about cake, but. Like if you if you wanted any sort of success with Twitch, you would have had to have started when they started. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say so if we're specifically talking Switch maybe most likely unless somehow a random clip gets you viral that has happened. Yes, I have. You have other socials, YouTube, Twitter, blue sky, Instagram. You really, you really have. Some power of your way to force your community to get built.

33:11 And yes, have a other following and bring them over, but that brings another problem of. Not everybody gets over yeah, that, but also. It's the same fucking thing. You have to get a following and sometimes discovery on those website. They're not as bad as Twitch are pretty fucking bad. YouTube like if to to talk about for a second. They have been having a lot of issues with that, specifically discovery. I mean, that's also a streaming site and I can see why it's, it's, it's a, it's a video format website first.

33:52 And that's how it's always been. Only recently they started streaming or live whatever it's called. Yeah, they, I say this because there's somebody in particular I watch who has been on YouTube since 2015.

34:07 You guys probably have heard of him. I don't know. He's called 8 Bit Ryan. Oh yeah. I think I've heard of him. So his viewership has gone down. I mean he is one of those over the top reaction kind of. Yes. Youtubers I I can see why. Yes, but that's not the problem. The problem is him and a lot of other Youtubers of that size have their videos aren't being pushed out to they're particular viewers like the people who have subscribed and and and all that like subscribing on YouTube now, it doesn't make a fucking difference.

34:49 It shouldn't even be there to be. Honest with you. It's broken, it doesn't fucking work anymore. But yes, 8 bit Ryan's editing style can. It's a lot, but the fact that like, at the end of the day, that's a full time job. He's not. He's not an asshole. I mean, I'm not, I'm not saying anything bad by being like, oh, he's this archetype. No, it's just, it's, it's a style that a a lot of people like and a lot of people don't, and that's perfectly fine. I mean that there's nothing wrong with that. It just, it sucks to see somebody who works so hard as a lot have to then be fucked, you know, 'cause I mean, like a lot of people, they forget that at the end of the day, these are people.

35:36 These are these are human beings that this is their full time job, this is how they pay their bills. This is how they support their family. I mean, that's in a sense that's the same thing with TikTok. Some people make a living out of TikTok and, well, there was a whole thing and a little bit ago. Yep. About that, Yeah. But that's not here. They're there, yeah. It's it's it's similar problem.

35:57 It's just trying to get into this like streaming and it's difficult is. I hate saying this but it feels like it's almost impossible now. It feels like it unless you I would say the easiest way is to get somehow discovered like a hit tweet on Twitter. Yeah get a bunch of followers and be like hey, I stream or on YouTube, make just a banger video and get like 1,000,000 views or 11,000,000. However many is actual success on YouTube. They. Suddenly in just hey I stream like check me out. There's somebody, a couple people are on TikTok but have started on like YouTube and, and Twitch and all that and they've said that you can't just stream on Twitch and expect something to happen and.

36:50 That's what I did. And that's what I did. And no, you you need to branch out and other things like YouTube, like TikTok, like those type of platforms to build your following so that then your following can then it's a Twitch. Yeah, like it is. It's a grind. And that's what I said earlier. Like you, you're better off doing other socials. But even then, there's the same issue of getting discovered. Yep. The issue follows you wherever you go and like it. It's like a part of me, it's like, it would be cool to be in that position, but at the same time it's also terrifying.

37:37 What? Like being a popular yes. OK. Because I feel you there. Because people know you, you know, And it's like you get worried about things that could happen. I mean I. Mean with the amount of death threats people send out to people nowadays. You can see that where my point is. That's not OK. No, that's fucked up. You don't think? That I'm not OK. You can disagree, but don't you start throwing someone's life that's fucked up. Nope. Yeah, and there's consequences for that kind of shit. Yeah. It's just.

38:10 That's where having some degree of anonymity is kind of precious to have on the Internet. And you know what also kind of made me stop streaming for a little bit when the whole fucking swatting thing was going on? Oh yeah. That actually scared me to the point of stopping because I'm like, that's the last thing I need is that the cops show up to my fucking house with guns drawn because they think something is going on that isn't right. That's terrifying. Yeah, Wait, no. Oh, you just made me think of something.

38:44 That's kind of fucked in a sense, Like it's it's one of those things where like, oh, that sounds cool. Then it's just no, that really isn't so a long time ago, probably five years, maybe more, where I watched a video of let's say Jack where he donated a small streamers and like, you know, showed them names, showed their names or whatever and like donated to them like a big amount and be like, well, here you go. But like, yeah, it's cool that they got that money, but what about the followers? Like, it sounds like, oh, yeah, like we did a good thing.

39:24 But like, I'd rather have like, you know, give me, you know, some screen time and be like, hey, like this person's actually really good or whatever. Instead of just the cash, Yeah, handout. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, because I'd fuck I wouldn't know what to. It was just like a like a 15 minute video or something. Yeah, like just shouting a person. Well, like Mr. Beast, I'm sure he's done that multiple times. Yeah, it's like. I I don't know how I'd feel if somebody of that magnitude gave me money because, like, it just, it feels wrong.

40:05 Yeah. You know, Yeah. And it's like, yay. That's odd. Cuz that's something you had to watch out when streaming Cuz I I've had it looked like somebody gave me like 100 bucks or whatever but really didn't. Oh yeah, cuz they can like charge it back. They can. Charge it back. But in my case it never happened at all. Yeah, so I'm like, you know, whatever, cuz that kind of stuff. I look like I go to where I would have this set up and see if it's actually there. Yeah. That's why if you're if you're streaming, you should probably have a PayPal because they're easier to deal with than just having it straight to your bank account, because PayPal can help you with that charge back.

40:52 And in some cases it's gone where the the streamer won the case for it. Like you don't go to court or anything, but you know you. Do you file thing with with PayPal? Yeah, didn't know that. Where they help you, Yeah. That's that. That actually happened to me one time with PayPal. My account got hacked by some weird Chinese game company and they said that my account purchased a couple games and I'm like, I never made an account here. And I took a look at their login, their sign up process and there's absolutely no way to verify your vet, your information.

41:35 It's just, Oh yeah, you put in your information and banned. There's an account. But I, I filed a theme with PayPal. I said, hey, I don't use this website and I don't, I don't, I don't have an account with these people. And they're like, yeah, this seems really suspicious. We're going to refund you the money and well, we'll deal with this company on our own end. So the fact that you can just tell PayPal, hey, I did not authorize this purchase, can we kind of investigate it? They'll actually do their due diligence and help you out with that.

42:12 Yeah, that's why I always say if someone wants to stream, set up a PayPal. Yeah, like don't screw around and use your bank account on its own. You will fucking regret it if something happens. I got two things. Yes. First of all, what you were saying about Mr. Beast reminded me of something from our our trip to New York last week. Oh, we go. Yeah, No, it would. This was the weirdest thing I've ever fucking heard off. He found Mr. Beast himself. No, Mr. Beast. Oh God. Sorry, sorry. No, Emma, Jess and I and her mom were walking up to Tiffany and Co because her mom wanted to get some jewelry.

43:03 And the girls went off to Louis Vuitton just to look around and a lot of the suitcases and whatnot. But we were crossing the street towards Tiffany and there were a bunch of guys trying to hang out little ID cards and be like hey check out my YouTube channel or check out my stream and I'm like what the fuck? Oh my God, was it like, did you get a look at the card itself? Or not. I just walked past them because I wasn't going to deal with it. Okay, but it looked like. You. Know like business cards?

43:41 Like little business cards with the QR code. On it. Yep, that's yeah. Kind of like what the fuck? Yep, some. The weirdest thing I've never heard anybody ever say. This if you have a business like and I mean a legitimate business here, not saying that you have one that is a way like if you wanted to promote your business in the right way because doing that is not going just going up to random people. So check this out. Check this out. Check. A lot of people. Are not going to trust you. It's it's New York.

44:11 Everybody's out to get you there. Yeah, well, well, not everybody, but a lot of people are. Yes, that'd be like going where we're at and doing that. You know. But I yeah, I have heard of that. I have heard of business cards with QR codes that then go to. Could be an Instagram of the company or or something. Or something an insecure site? Or an insecure site like yes, but in so with a legitimate business that is a a good way of, you know, giving this to whoever who might need your service or. Something but.

44:50 But you have to be careful. They were saying it was for their YouTube channel. It's like what the? Fuck, it's weird, ain't it? It's so weird. Yeah, I I don't, I don't understand. I, I, I never heard that around our travels to to Orlando, to Atlanta, to to Tennessee. Just never seen that. I'm so freaking weird. I'm just waiting for the day where I go somewhere, have my car parked, and all of a sudden I see that on my fucking windshields. All right, littering. Yeah, I bought this some fuck your shit.

45:26 I don't. I don't need you. Well, my second point is I, I like how we started this episode. I, it, you know, I, I kind of like that we're, we're, we're trying this open for or, or open form where I just kind of give a, give us a prompt and I let you guys kind of take away with it and see where we end up. I like how we, how I started it off as a discussion of, oh, should streamers be allowed to wield massive influence in their gaming communities? And the conversation kind of molded on into more of a general discussion on streaming culture as a whole.

46:05 While I I know we definitely strayed away from the topic I brought us up with, it's really interesting to see your guys's perspectives and because I I don't know what the streaming culture is. Just I've been talking about like what I feel. I know it's away from like streamers and how they affect the. The gaming industry? Yeah, the gaming sphere. And like, yeah, there's that, but also just I have a better time speaking at my experience, which is not that. Yeah, cuz I like with me I haven't done enough streaming myself and really research about the streaming sphere cuz when like I said, I've been burnt out so it's the last thing I. Do is look it up but.

46:58 But no, there are some things that you know, there, there are good things, like I said, that I've brought up like, you know, could help a new studio kind of get off the ground, you know, But yes, with some of these streamers that have such a massive following, it sometimes gets used for not very good things where, you know, a streamer may not like a game, you know, and. I galvanized people against it. Yeah, like, and I haven't seen that myself. I've seen like I've watched streamers that are, you know, level headed and this game is really not for me.

47:34 You know, like that's, that's cool. But it's not to say that that doesn't happen. No. And it's like if you're going to, if you're in that type of position where you're up here, you need to be responsible and watch what you say because your influence can be used against people. And like, that's the last thing I think you want to be doing. Like, it's not right. Yeah. You know, at the end of the day, we're gaming. Yeah, like, yeah, I mean it's. Just fun, have fun. Yeah, like it's not even just streaming as well.

48:09 It's like these streamers on social media, yes, or even just on Twitch too. They can send hate raids, yes sometime yeah that it's not that happened not very common yeah, not very common, but it. Has kind of like a taboo thing. But it has happened. Or on Twitter, because that's what I'm on. I see, you know, sometimes streamers being mean, maybe not necessarily mean, but also say sometimes just straight up mean. Just comment like either being mean or coming off like. Or even just drama, for example.

48:45 Yeah, Cinder. There was a lot of drama revolving around the streamer named Cinder. She was AP Tuber to the point where some of the big other big ones, Shy Lily, what's the she has? She has Zenyatta, Zendetta, something like that. Even she was really fucking harsh. Jeez. Fuck yeah. I mean it was a deserved harsh, but she was really fucking harsh. Sometimes it's got to be that. Way, yes, and we haven't seen Cinder since we haven't heard a lick. Probably scared her off at this point. Well, she fucked up.

49:28 Yeah. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go too far into it. I don't want to bring in too much drama. We were talking about streamers, but I just don't want to bring in too much. Drama. You don't want to get into the drama. Yeah, you can look it up if you want. Look up Cinder with an S. Yes, look it up if you want to know.

49:45 But yeah, she she fucked up. She tried to apologize and that wasn't genuine, just the way she worded it. And we haven't not seen it. I mean, I would hope that, you know, she gets, she learns and gets better about it. So that's all I can do is I can hope. Yeah. And you just. Yeah, you hope they be. They come out better than you know where they started. And you, you have to learn from your mistakes. If you're not going to learn right, then there's a problem. Right. That's just how you instantly lose your entire following.

50:17 That's why. Yeah, Pirate Nation. That's that. We don't want to talk about that. No, it's like I said, when you're in that type of level, you. Have to have more care, more responsibility. Yeah, because that's a lot. One one small tiny misstep and you can just. You could lose it like it doesn't matter how big you are. You. Can lose that shit quick. People have values and sometimes those values are pretty thin. I mean there's like a vast majority that have way bigger, like way longer steps to reach that those values, but you make one wrong step and everything just destroyed.

51:04 See. You know what these streamers need to be more like. You know who they need to be like. Mr. Rogers. I mean, honestly, that's not a bad. Point. Actually kind of yeah. No like I don't know if this is just me being biased but being more humble like Markiplier. You know how big that? Motherfucker is and and and literally he doesn't act like snobby or or anything. Everybody gets into a character, yes. That's acting. Yeah. But like, like him as a person, he's genuinely just fucking great. He is. I mean when when what?

51:52 Elliot caught fire? He literally took out a chainsaw and started chainsawing a tree. Yes. Opening up roads, yeah. Like he he even said that. Like he. He's just a dude. He's just a. He's a. Guy, at the end of the day, he's a human. You know, he could be here today, could be gone tomorrow, you know, like he is a person. But it's just, it's funny, when he was talking about, I forgot who he was on with. I don't know if it was a podcast or something, but he said he had a question like, you know, do you really have that much money?

52:27 And he's like, yeah, he's like, I don't know what the fuck to do with it, you know? And I'm like, that's a down to earth guy. Like he, Markiplier worked so hard. And I, I'm sure I can say for all of us that we watched him grow like I like, he's not. He did stream. I know this is about streamers. He did stream for a little while and then he occasionally does streams on like God YouTube, but he's more of a YouTube than anything else. He is. And like, just real quick at the beginning of his channel, that was more of a caricature.

53:06 Yes. Like that was there was Mark and then there was Markiplier. Yes, nowadays it's just Markiplier, but like there was Mark and then there was Markiplier during, during. What's it called?

53:22 What's the horror game that starts with an A Amnesia? Amnesia. Yeah. He was just bat shit crazy or like all these indie horror games that he was playing. He was just insane. But that was just Markiplier cuz I even said that he needs to be in the like he can't do this. Markiplier can do this. Yes. Yeah. That's what he said. I like, it's funny, I still remember the first video I ever watched of him in 2012. I couldn't tell you which one it was. I remember the first video I watched of him was Slender Elementary that instantly hooked on him.

54:12 It was the voice. His voice is fucking godly, even if he may not say it is, it is. He's got a nice voice. He does and I wish, I wish my voice was like that. I genuinely wish I had a bass voice. For. That's I'm like a not a tenor. What's above a tenor? Alto I think. Yeah, I think I'm like an Alto. Yeah, maybe in between the two, but yeah. But he just, he, he was really one of the first Youtubers I really watched and streaming cuz I was, and when he was streaming on Twitch, he did like the charity live streams and, and all that stuff, you know, like, I don't know, it was just something about him just clicked.

55:05 I mean, he's he's still the only one, well, quote UN quote, only one that has really stayed true. Yes, there was PewDiePie. Yes. And he's, you know, kind of doing his own thing now. He's got a kid, so. Right then there was, then there was Jacksepticeye, which got popular because of PewDiePie, which, fine, whatever, I'm not saying anything bad about it, just saying that that's what happened.

55:31 And then, you know, he's like doing his own thing on 2010 years ago. Both of them were into gaming, way into gaming. Same thing with Markiplier. But now Markiplier's doing whatever he wants, and anything he does views out the ass. Yeah, that's because he's just. Able to love him. Yeah, I mean, how could you, how could you not love that guy just for the fact of just, you're getting the real him. Yeah, you're getting the authenticity and the fact like when he got some of his, like some of those videos that a lot of the viewers made for him, you know you.

56:06 Oh yeah, I was thinking about that too. You. Know. And it's always randomly, always the memes of Markiplier crying, you know? I was thinking of that exact video. That's how you know he truly cares. Yeah, cuz like that. And not to be somber about this, but this is also how you can tell, like he really cares about everybody. There was somebody I he didn't name them, but it was one viewer he had that he found out died killed him. It, it, it's Mark was upset, you know, like that person's not here anymore.

56:47 He's like, why can't I do something? You know, it's like, that's how you know, he's a genuine person who is loving, caring, will do anything. Like that's, that's what a lot of like active streamers.

57:04 So we'll need to have a little bit more empathy. I mean, it's there's also this streamer, like I don't want to derail what you're saying, but like just going back to streaming though, like that's the thing about all these streamers that you know, play Battlefield 6 or Hollow night silk song or whatever new game is out now. It's just it's more of the let's go kind of deal. Try the hype man. Yeah, more than. Oh hey guys, today we're going to be streaming this game and we're going to we're just having fun.

57:31 We're just going to be at chill time, you know, we're just going to chill and chat, you know, just don't be, don't be mean. We're all friends here. It's like. If I want to throw somebody out, I think you guys should check out an ambiguous amphibian. Just I think he's a real chill guy, pretty fucking funny. He likes to his kind of bullshittery commentary is kind of like it has like a philosophical lens to it. So I think it's really witty, really funny all the time. I think you guys might enjoy it.

58:04 But anyways, I guess it are are we getting the final thoughts here wrapping up? Yes, like so I just, I just want to put this out here too. If we're going to like streamer wise, probably the people I've been watching the most and have like genuinely connected with them are what is it? So like Mark's friend Wade, obviously a minion, another channel, the GP, under score TV. Those are a group of wonderful and incredible women that, you know, play games and what not. And then their vibe I've really picked up on a lot 'cause it's more like very, you feel like you're at home.

59:05 Yeah. You know, kind of like how I like, when I watch wait, it's like the same thing. You kind of feel like you're, you know, you wanted there and, you know, 'cause you can tell. Like some streamers, like it's like, I don't know how I feel about this. You know you're not vibing. Yeah. But especially with the GP girls, 'cause they went through some shit. Not going to get into it, it's not my topic, but they went through a lot and hearing all of it was heartbreaking. But they didn't change. They didn't become sour or assholes or anything.

59:51 They just kind of went with it as much as it sucked.

59:57 They're probably one of the streamers I will always think about like who's my favorite besides like Mark Wade and all that. They are just because of the the growth of them coming from just a fucking microphone in a God damn garage, you know, to a full-fledged company now. Yeah, You know, I. Respect. Yeah. And that's all I'm gonna say. I mean, if we're gonna be shouting our streamers, there's one I want to shout out. His name is Heeltreach. It's HEAL do go. What's going on? I need to get Oh my God my phone.

1:00:43 I need the spell aggressive or his phone at the start of the episode. HEALTREACH he's just a chill dude. I mean, he plays like battlefield Call of Duty and he's not like, you know, the streamer culture usually, but he's like, oh, hey, what's up, Like friend basically like every everyone, everyone there's his pals buddies and we just chill and hang on. Have a good time, mom. I mean, I'm not really good at describing people, but yeah, I'd say, you know, just go check out. He doesn't stream too often but when you can check out a VOD or something and.

1:01:24 A shout out the homies man. You know, people that we generally like, watch and care about. That's actually how I found my Indian friend. Let's do that Channel, yeah. See, that's sometimes you never know, right? What could happen, You know, What about you, Mark? You're, you're the. You're the host. The host. The host. The host with the. The host with the most I almost bit my tongue. You don't do it well. I'm not trying to. Yeah, I'm just going to go hang on, you know, Crunch, crunch. Did you know that you actually can't bite your tongue?

1:02:01 Yeah. Your brain won't let you. I can bite it, I see. All the way through. You can see that that's different. That's different than Oh, you can't.

1:02:13 OK, let me rephrase it. You can't bite all the way through your tongue. Your brain will not let you. It's like trying to bite your finger. OK. Here's your random tongue. Fucking nerve endings in your tongue, what did you expect? Yeah, exactly. Here's. The thing that pisses. Me, the only thing. The only time that happens is if you're in a terrible accident. Here's the thing that pisses me off about a finger. A lot of people say you can bite your finger off with the same force as you can bite a carrot.

1:02:37 No, no you cannot. I've bit my finger pretty damn hard before. It is not the. Same. I'm not going to ask why you have bitten your finger, but. A lot of weird rages, That's all. I. Say dude, I. Understand that a. Lot of really weird rage dude. Oh my God, yes. If you want a weird fact about fingers, do you want to know why a lot of mechanics have started using silicon rings? Why? Is because metal rings can actually help deglove your finger if it gets caught in machinery. We love that. We love that fact.

1:03:16 We love degloving in. General, where deglove means your entire skin and muscle is stripped from your finger. Yeah, Yeah, it did. Yeah, it's. This terrifying thing. So there's your facts of the human hand. It's a non gaming facts at the end of the night. Yeah, I did. Not expect it to go like that. Well, we're here. That's what we got, yeah. And I think that's the way we should end off. I'm so sorry. Oh my God yeah end it Mark before I throw my mic out of not frustration but scared. Disgust, disgust.

1:03:54 Disgusting. Disgusting. Anyways, we have been plugging for player 4. Thank you for tuning in you give. Feel free to unplug and everybody have a good day. And don't forget to let us know what you think in the comments. Bye guys. Wait, what the fuck was that?