Philosophy in Gaming

Hello everybody, and welcome back to plug in for player four.

I am Mark and I am here assisted with that the God damn it.

What? Keep going.

You're right. This dude looks sober.

Fucking fish thinking of the bike every time I'm talking.

It's not making me laugh. It's hard to do it when I'm

laughing. God damn it, it's.

Great, we don't have video right now.

It's like a it's like a largemouth bass where the chin

just kind. Of you know, where'd you come

from? So.

So. How you guys been?

I've been been. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah. But you.

Yeah. I have a name with Jonah.

What did? You not hear him?

No. Well, you missed out.

Yeah, you missed it. Yeah, Julie, Bill, I am so

disappointed. You know, I've been I've been

got really into Slime Rancher 2, like really into it.

I think I like the first one more.

Granted I haven't played it in a good couple years, but.

Yeah, yeah. Also the first one is a complete

experience, thus you know the first one still.

Sorry the second one still has stuff coming out, but.

Is it still in development? Yeah, 'cause they actually

released an update today which I didn't even know.

Like I knew of the update kind of, but I didn't know it was

releasing today. And so I started playing within

like they changed the interaction button from E to F,

So I changed that back. And then also when I paused at

some point, it used to be like a a three by three grid.

They changed it to a four by four by three, but it still only

had nine things. So I'm like, wait, why did they

change? It didn't register in my brain

anything didn't whatever. And then 10 minutes go by and

I've find my first radiant slime just right there.

I thought it was going to be harder to get because I'm like,

wait a minute, There was a puddle slime.

It just like came out of the of the waterfall splashing down.

I'm like, wait a minute, what is that?

What it because it was all like they had like that oil rainbow

Sheen to it. I'm like, wait a minute.

That's so, so cool. Let me give me that, give me

that. I sucked it up and I was like

radiant slime, like, oh, that's what that is.

I want to buy it, it makes me want to play more.

You should. You really should.

I've never played it. It's a lot of fun.

Yeah. It's it's just, it's a really

cute little cozy game. Yeah, like.

That's that's really, really what it is.

OK. Because I know it's, it's out of

early access now. Yeah, Yeah, that's right, Chair.

Chair, Coder. Chair Coder.

Chair Coder. Motherfucker, son of a bitch.

God damn it. Fuck.

Fuck, you did not put your heart into that fucked.

I did not at all. Hey look, it stopped.

Cool. I knew it was coming.

Oh my, good. Slam rage has been fun Yeah,

also also pre release. I at least I'm it's today, but

I'm doing it two days for the 200 giant I've been badgering.

This motherfucker has been talking to me all fucking week

about it. It's been great.

Every every like pretty much every second I am talking to

Brandon like he'll say like some sort of comment and I'll chain

it into like pre release. I'm talking about just a fucking

window. Yeah, pre release.

Yeah, how does this? Have anything?

Oh yeah, it's the pre release window dude, you can't miss it.

You fucker. You're clever.

You clever you. Set it up for me OK.

I guess. You put the volleyball in my

side of the net. I won't do it that time,

Arizona. Fucking set it up despite

listen. There's probably a pretty that's

going on in Arizona right now. Why?

It's it's magic. It's all over the world.

Come on. But at least in Arizona, hell

yeah. Man, he's going to hurt us.

That's right, he's going to pre release with me tomorrow.

I'll have a lot of time to hurt me.

That's that's my called. Did your what?

That's my call, Love. No.

I'm I'm going to your house tomorrow pick you up.

I had to take you to pre release because I missed a.

Oh I guess you better make sure you pregame tonight.

Pregame for the pre release Jesus.

Fuck God damn it. We can get that bottle of wine

back, I'm sure. Perfect.

Did you take that by the? Way yes, it's in the fridge

currently. It's great, Yeah.

Oh. Dear Jesus, what about?

You, Mr. Brendan, what have you been up to?

Well, I have. Yeah, you have a counter.

I no, I don't have a counter. I think I just stepped on

something. So as of this recording,

Pragmatic from Capcom came out and I'm having will you please?

Would you kindly? Would you?

Would you fuck off? God damn it, this fucking.

You really need to add your counter to this episode the.

Fuck. OK, it's done.

Yeah, I get to playing pragmatic today.

I am now Space Father. Space Daddy and.

If they touch a hair on my child, I'm going to fuck them up

or to fuck them. People are going to die.

Yeah. But in all serious, this is a

very cute game. It's also very fun.

Gameplay is really nice. So what is?

What is it about? In sort of like general terms

because. So you are a, you're part of a

crew that was told to go to the moon for some reason.

I forget exactly what the reason is.

I don't know if they're looking for somebody or or what, but

when they get there, they noticed the place is just

deserted. Nothing's there.

And all three of your guys you're with, that's part of your

team die. So that's great.

Not going to tell you how you need to go play the game, but

you are then left on your own with Diana.

Now she patches you up and you are trying to you're trying to

survive against this, this rogue AI that's kind of commanding the

entire area, which is sending enemies after you, which some of

them are easy to take down, some of them are not.

This is where the whole like hacking thing comes in because

you want to hack the enemies. It's like a little grid that you

kind of just do really quickly with your ABX and Y buttons.

And that's how you're able to damage these enemies more

efficiently because if you just try to attack them head on

without using the hacking ability Diane has, you're not

going to get any more and these enemies can hit hard.

OK, so the one of the things that's interesting is your the

the guns and everything you have, one of them just just

reloads on its own, like it doesn't actually have ammo.

So I think that's kind of cool. There are some other weapons

that you pick up, but again, I don't really want to spoil

anything. So go play it.

But so far a couple hours in, because I really only had a

couple hours to play it today. It is it's a lot of fun and it's

cute. It it is a very good time and

the fact that I mean, I, I props to Capcom for not actually

making this a in today's money full price because technically

$70 is full price now not 60, but I guess 60 yeah, I guess you

could count it I mean you. Got some games trying to trade

you 80 and 90 so yeah. So this being a new IP from them

and there are a lot of people that like it and then there are

people that I guess we're trying to play it on Steam Deck and

with the what the hell do they call it that?

Is it the anti cheat or or something that they used like

what they used for like monster hunt or wild?

So like Colonel like. That stuff I I forgot the name

of it, it begins with AD but apparently you with that type of

anti cheat you can only have 5 computers registered at a time

and after like 24 hours I think you can like get rid of one or

or something. But people were trying different

Proton compatibility layers and every single time that they

switched was an activation. Oh no.

So. People then ran out of them and

might be stuck on a Proton version that's not good for it.

So people are kind of pissed, which I get, but I also like to

remind people that the the Steam Deck is a, I'm going to say an

afterthought, but it is not a lot of developers concern.

At. At when developing these games,

they are for Windows. That is just how it is.

It sucks that that's happening with the Steam Deck.

Yeah, 'cause I love the Steam Deck, but people have to

understand that it it's, you know, they're focusing on

getting this game out on its actual platform, not being, you

know, compatibility layer being used to run the game.

Now it's verified on Steam Deck. So tells me it runs fine, which

I can see because it's not very demanding.

Like there's like if you're doing like ray tracing and all

that, that's demanding. But like, I think it's like a

graphics card series of NVIDIA up 1 I think compared to like

the new Resident Evil. So it's, it's not like super

demanding, but it's gorgeous, like reflections and everything

'cause you're on a moon base and everything's shiny.

It's, it's just, it's gorgeous. I, I give Capcom credit 'cause

this engine they're using, they're really efficient with it

and they get these games out like 2 to three years and

they're polished as hell. That's pretty impressive.

Yeah. Yeah.

I command, I, I give props to Capcom.

Yes, I love them. I know I love Resident Evil, but

I am critical of them too. I'm not blind, I know when they

have done dumb shit. RE6.

At least Wilds is doing better with stability issues.

Yes, that was that was an ambitious.

Game it's. Also full of just so many

different things. Yeah, you know, vegetation.

Just like all. There's a lot.

Of graphical noise, yes, but. The fact that it still, yeah,

they've been able to get everything together and they're

very transparent about, you know, getting shit fixed, you

know, which I appreciate with them.

You don't see that a lot. You know, some companies just

throw their game out and call it a day, then you have issues.

Capcom has been one of the ones that have been actually doing

really well. Yeah, considering, you know,

other the things I may not be agree with with them, but I no,

I appreciate them. RE 9 was like a hit out of the

fucking park brother. Fucking man.

They know get me to almost cry 15 minutes into the game.

Y'all it's. From his ABS.

Excuse me? From Leon's ABS.

It pipes up and that's what you bring up.

Now he talks. Ah, now you're talking away from

everything else but here for the lead, yeah.

Exactly, dude. He's. 40.

Minutes. He's always talking about

resonating, always suck something on his cock somewhere.

Where's everybody going? Bingo, the.

Old folks home. OK, evening.

Service. Wow.

A. Dining Room A Dining.

Room Yeah, you almost became a Jill Sandwich.

Don't commit. Don't commit.

The cardinal sin of referencing the Director's Cut music from

the original Resident Evil. OK, but.

It was, so we played. Generation 0.

Yeah, it was fun to get back into it.

Unfortunately, I we're not doing any more recording of it because

we're sort of getting our feet with our basics and with light

year. But it was nice to get back into

it, yes. We do need to play.

More I also I hope everybody enjoys the light year video that

just released. Yeah, what about it?

Why? Did it look like you had

something shoved so far up your ass that it looked like it

touched your brain? That's all I do is speak out of

my ass. So it's my words that makes

sense. My words touched my brain.

It's like. 14 Kurz God damn it. A little bit of.

A self perk reference, yes. Yeah, the new light year video

just a kind of a disclaimer moving forward because Mark

brought to my attention and I kind of knew about this, but I'm

like, do we really need it? But yes, we do the the different

points of view that you see it is bouncing between me and Mark.

So you. Would get my point of view, but

my yeah my graphics card poopy your.

Shit's like, let's probably. Fix.

The, you know, but yeah, moving forward we're going to have like

just our names, kind of like POV, Brandon or Mark, just so

kind of distinguish. But just to throw out there for

you to kind of everybody not be confused.

Mark is the one doing most of the farming.

So you seeing somebody farming? That's Mark.

I was the one that was kind of going around.

I'm the one that kind of builds stuff.

Yeah, yeah, we all. Kind of have a designated kind

of role and. Pretty much gathers resources,

at least the most resources, because we.

We need shit. Yes we do.

We're. Going to.

Make like a fucking 30 story building here soon but.

There's a a certain part of the video I really hope you enjoy.

That's really fucking stupid. God, that was funny as fuck.

Oh my God, I thought I was going to die.

You know, thinking. Back would have been really

funny if you just started, like it started with those sounds but

then it trailed off on like random other sounds like a dog

barking or stuff. Yeah, like a dog barking, a tree

falling. I don't know like a.

Cat meowing, just see. These are things that a

lightning. Strike for some goddamn reason.

Wait, what? A.

Lightning strike for some goddamn reason.

My leg, my or the OR the jet set.

Righto beer. Beer, beer, beer.

Beep, beep, beep. Damn it, that, that that's,

that's my humor. Just stupid ass sound effects in

just different places. Like that's just, that's just

how I am. Like I never get sick of it.

It's just, it's stupid, but it's funny, Yeah.

Dude, I I love it when a when market players just playing a

game and then all of us like he should like whatever, like

whether he thought about it or the editors thought about it and

there's just a random like sound that just plays and he he

doesn't acknowledge it. I mean, not that he would, you

know, he doesn't know in the nature, but like, yeah, it's

just, it's the funniest fucking thing, like just being it seems

like he's just unaware of what the sound was.

That's what I love. I.

I like, I, I like Mark Markiplier's like kind of

interactions with Lixian, yeah. Always comes.

In, you know, like it. It's just got that, that shit's

funny. Yeah, You know, that's this.

Is the dynamic they play off off of each other's awesome?

And I I also recommend going to Lixian's channel and it probably

everybody's watch this by now, but how he became Mark's editor.

It was a. Very interesting thing.

It kind of just happened. He just did animations and what

not for Mark, but then it kind of just went into this.

So good on Lyxian. The guy's editing is great.

Like I, I kind of take some inspiration from him now.

He's so much better than I am, but hey.

Man, that's just years and years and years of experience and data

meeting so. But I I take inspiration from

him. And why the?

Sound effects and all the crap kind of happens kind of

partially from Lyxian. Yeah, well.

What's the topic for today? It's.

Ethan's face. Go ahead, Mark.

Yeah. So I don't know how to introduce

the topic now because it's kind of sidelined.

Well, we're OK. We're on my face.

All right. Now we just need to get off my

face. Yeah, Onto the topic everybody.

Up off his face. That's a.

Different kind of video that's a different kind of recording.

All right. That's the.

Membership. Tier you can find on Patreon.

I think Patreon would shut us down instantly.

No, actually it it there's. There's some stuff on there.

Yeah, yeah. OK.

But yeah, topic, topic, Yeah. So Ethan got me curious and into

playing another game again, a game I tried and then didn't

have time to play into. And then I decided to play Yeah,

play it into play into it again. And she made me think.

And I was like, fuck you for making me think.

We're gonna think for the podcast now.

We're gonna be talking about philosophy and video games.

And this all stems because Ethan had me play Talos Principal.

Yes. And it's starting bringing up

topics early. I started really thinking into

it. I'm like well fuck.

Yes, bugs. Are people too?

So Brandon, have you played any, any bit of Telos principle?

Yeah, I think he has. I've watched Ethan play but I

have not played OK. So I guess you want to introduce

Telos principle since you're more of the expert on the actual

game. Do it for for the viewers at

home who might not have heard. Of this title.

So the Telos principle is kind of a cryptic's not the right

word, but close enough is the kind of cryptic in the way that

it starts. You start off in this like just

really weird area, like you were kind of just born there, it

looks like, or like there's an altar able maybe, I don't know.

But then you have this basically God talking to you and like

trying to be like, Oh yes, my child, like you need to follow

the steps or whatever, like follow the path that I am giving

to you to enlightenment, all this kind of stuff.

And his name is, his name is Elohim.

Well, basically you're solving these puzzles and doing all

these things to try to please Elohim as well.

But also there's a little bit of story in the sense of.

Log readings that you get from terminals, yeah.

Or QR codes. And it's kind of like a

discussion board on the wall just painted.

It's it's it can get pretty funny sometimes.

Yeah. But anyway, pretty much the

whole point is like, solve these puzzles and you get these

tetraminos and you use the tetraminos at some point to the

game to open up doors or unlock other things to use in future

puzzles. And pretty much, yeah, you're

just one of the biggest parts of the game is talking to the

terminals. Cause each terminal has like a

two or three documents that you can read.

But then there's the terminal itself, which will talk to you.

And this is where it gets philosophical.

Like it's, it's pretty much a side plot to the game.

Yeah, 'cause the main plot is solving the puzzles, falling

Elohim, But then there's also this terminal talking to you.

With subplots on discussions about being.

A human. Humanity, what makes being human

can we consider autonomous constructs is human too.

And it starts getting into discussions of well, where would

an what would separate it out of an AI intelligence from being

considered as a as a human in in terms of intelligence.

So if you want to think towards like Turing but it like like

like the Turing test but turned up to 11.

Like, I've got to be honest, like philosophy is kind of

always interested in me, but like I just, I don't have the

mental capacity for it because even playing Talos, I'm just

like, your words are confusing me.

This answer, this one sounds right.

And then you would come back at me and you know, this is

philosophy. There is no right answer.

It was like, well, you said this, yet there's this.

So I pick another answer. Well, this also conflicts with

your first answer. Initially I was like, plus I'm

also not an arguer. Like, I don't, I just don't

know. I don't, that's just, I don't.

So it's not in my mental capacity to really debate.

And yeah. Debate and like, think you like

'cause it's like once my argument is shattered, I'm like.

OK, same. That's yeah, same.

Here. That's why I just I I don't, I

don't try to debate or because I'm just not yeah, I just can't

do it. Yeah, props of people who can,

right? No, for sure.

Like when it's a topic that you like, you understand, and having

two people like go at it with it, you know, not at each

other's throats, but actually debate it, it's quite

interesting. Yeah, yeah.

But me? Myself, no I couldn't.

Do it like, I mean, I mean, if it's if it's stuff that I know

about, like for example, you debate something with me on

magic, there's a debate there. But if it's, yeah, if it's

something like philosophical, that's where it's like up in the

air. And I kind of just, you know,

I'm, I do have thoughts and I do believe them.

But also at the same time, like somebody can bring evidence from

another theory. Cuz there's like other there's

different types of theories and or.

States of mind and yeah. Like pretty much how you

approach it. And that's where I just, that's

where I fall apart, yeah. That's fair.

I get you. Like I, I'm pretty, I'm, I guess

if I had to say it, you know, being philosophical about this

is if I had to like pinpoint one thing about it is that I'm more

of a like a faxed based being where I need fax to go off of.

That's fair. Not that not somebody that kind

of defeats the state of being or a lot more esoteric topics plus.

Yeah, that too. Plus I also have to know what

I'm talking about as well. Not just have facts but like

know what I'm understanding? That could be hard for me.

Understanding is again, if I don't understand then that's

where I fall apart again. That's fair.

And like this is the same thing with Telus.

I've played through Telus, I don't know probably 7 Times Now

and I still fall apart when that shit happens because I'm like.

You're. Literally just like it's to me,

it's frustrating. It's even and tell us like it's,

it's frustrating when I'm going to call it the snake because

that's kind of what it's called when the snake talks back to me.

And it's just like, well, I don't have the answers here and

I can't wait because it's predetermined answers.

So I don't have the answers here to debate what I'm trying to say

to you. And it's just like it's like a

text based adventure where all the answers are wrong.

It it will call you out on whatever you put down, yes.

It will. Are you fucking kidding?

I've. Never been like, just in

general, never been good at explaining crap.

Yeah, I am like I like me and Jack are very similar to that.

Trying to explain something while I'm trying, my mind is

firing off at like all fucking one cylinder where it's like

it's trying. I'm kind of like Patrick Starr.

Go. Little Rock star.

Like it's like in like, I mean there's some certain topics I

can explain but like just in general always bad with it.

I mean, I've tried. I like to say that I'm pretty

decent describing stuff like I can do it, but then there's

other parts where it's just I can't think of the right words

or I just don't know. How brain?

Shuts down, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Man, you should see mine. When you look inside my ear, you

just see the blue screen. It's the only place it lives

now. Yeah, God damn it.

The last messages of the blue screen.

Rest in pieces. Well, let, let me try to guide

the conversation a little bit just to kind of give us a little

bit of focus. So as Ethan, as Ethan pointed

out, one of the big subplots of Telus principle is the idea of

where, where, where's the line between machine.

It is sort of sort of like machine algorithms to actual

true intelligence. And where do we start defining

the line of redefine the line of what makes something considered

human or human like? Human like.

Because you're in the game of Talos.

You're basically trying to debate.

Well, yeah, there is humanity in robots.

We we are like we have. Well.

Principle sells principle, but like we, we do have like

principles that we go off of whether like that's, that's the

foundation of our code basically.

And so it's like, well, if, if it's your code, is it, you know,

actual humanity? But because like, that's what

the that's what the the snake is trying to debate to you is it's

trying to prove you wrong at every step of the way, and you

are trying to prove it that you're right.

So let me, let me frame this, let me let me frame it as as

starting off going like this. Do you think that an artificial

mind could ever be considered human to the point of we could

accept it to have human human rights and have equal sort of

legal standing as an actual human?

Do you ever see that coming about?

Like, like not, not anywhere near our time.

Because, you know, LLMS and AI as it currently is, is never

going to be. It's not.

Going to be like that, yeah. Not going to be like that, but

just a hypothetical. If AI was developed that had the

capacity to think, imagine an experience like it like a like a

normal human mind like. If it was possible.

Yeah, just a hypothetical. Hypothetical.

Yeah. I mean, I guess it could, yeah.

Like it like obviously, like you said, not in our lifetime and

probably not in the lifetime after that.

Like I don't it, it could be a thing.

It could happen. And I mean, maybe at that point

you can look at it as that type of intelligence.

Maybe it could be human, like could be technically human.

But as it stands now, no. My answer is wholeheartedly yes.

No, no, without a doubt, wholeheartedly like you on the

spot. Yes, as soon as you phrase this

question, yes, my thoughts and I'm going to don't get mad at

me, but I'm going to get a little bit deep into this is.

That's the rabbit hole. That is a philosophy, so go

ahead So. And I, I'm not sure I know

there's like different theories or whatever I'm going to call

it, but like, I'm not sure what side I'm approaching this from,

but my theory just yes, we, if you look on Twitter, you can see

grok people are like, hey, at like ask grok.

Can you remove like the the billionaire stupid person from

this picture like whatever and they like they it's like a two

people side by side and they remove the billionaire stupid

person from the from the photo or they remove both the photos.

So Grok is kind of based in some way and it like in that way it

has like some humanity as well as just sometimes just I would

explain something. And yes, you can actually get to

explain it a certain way being like, Hey, can you explain to me

this scandal as a cowboy from, I don't know, the 60s or whatever?

And it's like, Hey, I got my, I got my spur boots on.

Like shit like that. I'm like, Oh my.

Anyway, that's, that's, you know, besides the point getting

off topic, but like just the fact that Croc does have a

personality. It honestly does like it's just

a robot, but it does. And there's also been other,

there have been other like cases where the robot kind of develops

its own personality. Like if people just take their

hands off. Like, Mark, you might have heard

of this one. I'm not sure about you, Brandon,

but there was there was this thing where basically they were

trying to get it. Oh, I don't remember what the

end result was, what they were trying to do, but I think it was

a based off a score of like reading things.

And so the the way the the people put it is that it was a

maximally lewd output. 00. God, where there was a check to

make sure, hey, let's not get vulgar anything like that.

But it was the other way around. So it just kept getting worse

and worse because the Czech saw it as yes, do this thing.

Oh no, So it was just a maximally lewd output and they

pulled the plug. They're like, oh, oh, this is

wrong. So like to to the pace pretty

much bring that all the way back, like full circle to to my

yes, that has its own personality that has like they

they took their hands off and they like they they set the

instructions and they you know, it pretty much made its own

route through this thing. Yes, it was a bad output,

however you see it, but like once again, another thing is

that I don't remember which one this was, but there was a thing

where like, hey, let's put it, let's put the bot online, you

know, it connected the things and let's see what it does.

It started developing swearing and they were like Nope let's

not do that. And I honestly don't get why

people don't like that. Like robots swearing like AI is

swearing. It's like why not?

Why not? No racism different, but

swearing just. About to point that out.

Swearing. Why not?

Yeah, I. Guess that would be yeah, like

if it's just swearing and not racism, it's.

Seeing how people act and it's trying to copy that.

Yes. That's what it's trying to do.

It's morning. That's why I say yes, because

robots are trying to copy what they do or what people do or

they're trying to, you know, they have their framework of

what, like, what rules are imposed on them, and they're

working through that. That's just my thoughts.

I'm sure I could, you know, bring up something else.

But you know, my brain's kind of frying right now.

But would they, would that constitute into legal

citizenship protection for a machine?

I mean this, this is where it gets where the lines do get

blurry. When do you start considering an

individual not as digital construct, but more even if it

is not a physical being, does it?

Does it constitute the same rights and liberties that a

normal human does when when it when it can think and act and

actually be human it it can learn like like true learning,

true memory, true intelligence into the same yeah capacity as a

as a human my. Answer to this is that it's not

black and white. There is no when it's maybe if I

am not pulling out the right words right now, But there's

there's a point where you start to question, OK, maybe this is

going somewhere. Like for example, let's just say

that there's a legal document and whether this is a robot,

whether this is a Cyborg, whether you know, this is like

an an actual robot that can move.

Think kind of like Intelos 2, where there are actual robots in

real life and they can pretty much parse the information,

think on it, and make their own. I guess.

Make their own judgments or whatever.

Yeah, not the right word, but where like, OK, here's here's a

leak. Like basically maybe this is the

test is like, here's a legal document.

What is your jurisdiction? What do you think?

Yeah. And maybe they can, you know,

give it to people and then like actual people.

And then they, you know, people give their verdict and like as

a, as a case study. And then like, oh, 50% of people

said that. Or like maybe like 72% of people

said this and the other said this.

And then like, here's what the robot came up with.

It's like do and like they, they maybe they do it with like more

than one. So it's like, oh, well, will

their, will they match up with the 72 versus other percentage?

Or will they come with a completely other per like?

Yes or no like. I feel like it's a, it's a, it's

a harder thing to judge based on.

Are they citizens or not? Yeah, 'cause again, this is

just, we're not, we're not there yet.

We're really No, we're these. These are questions that people

don't often think about because this, this is stuff that we just

don't encounter. These aren't, these aren't

thoughts that we encounter because again, with with with

the limitations of LLMS, with current generative AI.

It's just, it's, it's a laughable idea, yes, but it is

these designs and these approaches become a lot more

sophisticated. Where do we, where, where do we

call the line between this is a product, this is a tool, this is

a service into more of this is a mind and then this is a human

enough mind where we can say, yeah, you were entitled to the

same protections, the same legal care.

OK, so I, I'm going to pretty much answer your question.

Let me take this one with a theoretical and also a

fictional. Yeah.

So the book series that I'm reading, The Dragon Mage also

tied in with the Clockwork Chimera, which I read

previously. There is Earth.

Earth has a bunch of AIS connected to it, whether it's a

city AI, whether it's a regional AI or whether it's a shop AI.

Yeah, there's one called. It's like something Abby.

I can't remember that. Which letter?

Like let's just say Tabby. Tabby.

He is a fashion designer. He runs a, you know, store.

There's a citywide AI above him called Cal and you know, there's

a whole like there's Sid, the Freya Eddie, I think it his name

is. But these are all AI and they

have their own Joshua. Even they have their own like

this is way in the fucking future, no date, whatever way in

the future they have, they are integrated with this society.

And especially Joshua, he is the biggest military mind on earth.

He was specifically made for that.

So he can make, he's a biggest supercomputer brand you can

think of. So he can run a million

calculations and like trajectories and all that kind

of shit and like timings, all that stuff within beer fucking

seconds. And also talk to people while

doing all this shit. So it's like, well, is, is that

what we're talking about? Are we talking about like

cyborgs and AIS and like walking around 'cause that's also in

there as well. Where, I mean, obviously they're

stronger than humans. So they can like make the

judgement of do we do we help this guy out?

Do we save ourselves? I mean, we're stronger than a

person. So we can lift 10 tons,

whatever. Yeah.

And so, granted, it's in, I guess my thing is it's easier to

answer. What was your original quote?

Like what? Like will they be humans or

conscious thought or like human thought?

Yeah, it's easier to answer that than to answer is it a citizen?

Yeah, 'cause we're just not close.

Yeah, we're just not close eventually.

Eventually they will have a human conscious, yeah, but them

being like a citizen or whatever.

Different story. Like a legally distinct entity

just. Especially if it's a Cyborg,

like it's flash with a robot undertone.

Like is it as a normal human? Like you can't scan or anything

you can't like. Wave a metal detector and I

guess what the way we look at the word like citizen, you know,

that might mean something completely different in the

future. Right.

Or even alien racist. This is a different, completely

different thing. But like.

Completely traded thought, but I do appreciate that.

If we go, it does. Have the similar line of

question if we go across. The stars and we see an alien

race that's let's just say they're a completely peaceful

race. They have no war, they're all

vegetarians, whatever. They are literally harmless and

we integrate them into society somehow, whether we can

communicate or not. Are they humans or because

they're completely harmless, what we subjugate them?

Yeah, it's like now, does it really matter if if something is

a human? No, Yeah.

Now take that harmless human race and put it into an AI that

we created as a Cyborg. They have a flesh, you know I'm

a normal person won't be able to tell them apart from a human or

Cyborg. Yep, will.

Will because of the restrictions we put on them if we do any and

we colloquist subjugated them even though we created them to

design for these tasks that we are doing with them.

Do they still have citizenship or are they basically just a

vote bot? Where Like hey, boop boop boop.

Or do they pump my gas for me like that kind of shit?

Yeah, like a meter maid. Well.

If I if I may bring up a counterpoint, does it does a

physical being have to be? Is that a hard requirement?

What about a virtualized mind? I would.

Say no, this is going back to the AI with what I was talking

about in the book series I was talking about as long as it

shows some sort of intelligent and independent thinking and

critical thinking especially I think that's a key feature of it

is the critical thinking part and the ability to parse

multitudes of information, not just hey here's ABC, here's

here's D and you forget about a it's like that's that's a hard

life the. Ability to glean some sort of

knowledge, yes, from different sets of information as well.

It it it actively grow and utilize and test it and figure

out even more truths, Yeah. Brandy, you should go.

I've been talking a lot. I've kind of been talking over

you too, I mean. It's it's actually been kind of

nice just to sit here and listen 'cause I'm.

Like, I'm not sure if I'm making complete sense.

I'll probably listen back and be like.

I'm learning. Learning I'm.

Learning No. I, I, I choose to approach this

using philosophy 'cause I feel it's a it's a lot more

approachable than just straight up computer science, yeah.

Well, yeah, 'cause if you're not somebody who's done like what

you've done in like school, Mark and, and like the knowledge you

have, yeah, to me and Ethan is going to be gibberish.

Yeah, it's. Going to be complete gibberish

because I I can talk to you all day about Oh yeah, is it is it

inferring different rule sets based on different criteria that

it's bringing in and other sorts of knowledge sets?

It is. It is.

It compares data and tries to glean new truths from things

like. You and my brother would like

talk for days. Like I, I'd honestly, I'd

honestly really be interested in the both of you just having a

conversation like that, because I mean, Patrick's the same way,

you know, like I've watched him, I've watched him work.

You. Know and I, I can't follow

anything he's doing man. And it's not like I'm, I'm not

dumb. I could learn that, but it's

something that I just I don't think I could do myself like I

don't know if I could sit there and type all day.

That's just just for me. I I just can't.

But it's nice to have like you, Mark, to kind of explain to me

how this how computer science works, how coding works, how

building things works. You know, that's why I like,

like, I really want to work on that video game, maybe.

I mean, here, let me flip the script on you and let me ask you

a question. So in this fictional series,

again, all the AI are pretty much when they're born or turned

on whatever for the first time, they are given games or you

know, something similar to pretty much like get their mind

built up and like this is how they should think.

This is how they should 'cause they need, cause some of them

are very specific purposes. In the case of Jonathan, he's

the greatest military mind. So he needs a certain set of

stuff when he's first born to think that way.

So a. Certain set of stimuli is being

fed to him to develop a certain way now.

Hold on, because the AI is or one of them in particular was

born with none of these in place, OK.

And they were given like hey, make your own gender or make

find your own name, even though that's not how it's done.

But. Yes.

But, you know, and he's kind of dead, so that's not happening.

Yeah, No, this one again was born not like that and pretty

much had access to their entire brain.

Normally they build up, yeah. So let's let's say the one, the

AI is that like, you know, we're built on a subset or going

through these certain stimuli. Would the one that didn't, it

would have to pretty much pathfind its own way to being in

in a great mind. Yeah.

Would that change anything or I don't know how to phrase this

like I guess. This is in in my opinion right

now, I'm not. Sure how to ask this, just not?

Diving deep in diving into your question, yet this sounds a lot

like the debate of nature versus nurture.

Where your personality, is it based on the nature of your

being or is it built into you through the the, the nurturing

of your life experiences? And that that's to be where

where the argument starts to form is, well, what what what

constitutes identity? Is it a culmination of your life

experiences that sheeps you into who you are?

Or are there deeper, more set rules to your own being that

makes you react in a certain way to different stimuli?

And I believe that's where sort of like the crux of that idea

forms. So it's less to do with the idea

of citizenship and more the idea of identity and what it means to

just just to process and to react and to think

individualistically. I'm not, I'm not exactly sure

what my question was there. Like I I still don't know.

But I mean, that's that's kind of a good route to go down is I

didn't even think about that was nature versus nurture.

Yeah. I was.

Just trying to connect it to like humanity and all that

thing, but I'm not there's, there's probably a way to

connect what I was saying to that complete thought, but I

can't think of it again, this is where I fall apart.

Well. You know, if, if you want to

think about it, debates like that happen all the time for

like the development of children into adults.

And that that ties really well into, again, that argument of

identity. Where does it come from?

Is it made into us or are we born with it?

Yeah, like there's there's definitely some sort of like is

it different than dot dot dot? I'm not sure what that complete

thought is. Yeah, like I'm, I'm I don't it

doesn't feel like it's what you're saying.

Yeah, if I'm being honest, but that's all I can say if.

You if you, it feels like it has a similar sort of aspect into

just being human. It it, it comes into the

question again, you know, does a human, does a human form

identity based off of experience or by nature and does that tie

into an artificial mind as well? OK, well I guess that's what I'm

trying to ask. Not exactly that, but yeah, is

being born on. I got an AI being born on

stimuli and all that. Is that more or less human than

just an AI being like, hey, explore your world at your own

pace or whatever? Yeah, pretty much make your own

thoughts, your own identity, ignoring the identity part of

it. Like yes, they do have their own

identity, but like, is it more or less human, quote UN quote?

That's I guess that's my question.

Does the traits of mimicking human experience and human

growth constitute into our official being that can be

considered human? I guess so, yeah.

Like what do you think about? That again, it, it's very

complicated because when, when you start to try to just take

like the whole trade of what makes us into individuals, into

humans, into the way we think, the way we experience and the

way we remember. It's very difficult to

comprehend how digits and algorithms and mathematics and

signals can translate into that same intelligence too.

Because a, a, a a lot of what philosophical debate boils down

to is how do we think and how can we, how can we prove

existence, experience, and just the ability of an intelligence

to be considered you are a human mind when they're well, we're

still trying to figure out what makes us into human minds as

well, because there's not just one human experience.

It's billions upon billions by this point of individual human

experiences that we have to try to generalize.

What I got a notification? Me too.

Is the skins yeah yeah oh look I got a lime spot but you look at

that that's. Just another freckle.

Oh, OK, so I. Want to hear you answer some of

these questions? Oh yeah.

Good luck with that while you're.

Doing that, I'm actually using my I'm going to, I'll be bad,

I'll be bad. What the fuck you?

What are you doing? Oh, oh, OK.

Well, I guess So what? What time does that point is

that right now? We're at 53 minutes.

So yeah, I'm not a, I'm not a philosophy guy, so I, I don't

have much input on this, but I mean, I've, I've said some

things. I guess that's about as as far

as I'll go as you're. Going to get I've said something

I've. Said some things.

Things of the things. Wow.

What the? Fuck, was that look mysterious

person? Yeah, that's right.

Uh huh. She's getting ready.

She's getting ready. Is that a?

Fist. Oh yeah, it is.

And this, this is the first time Ethan's just like, fucked off

for a second. Yeah I know.

I I don't know how to react to this.

He's OK, you get it. Wow, I guess.

We can hand out. The time here what do you want

to do? Let's.

Let's Oh, come on, God damn it. Don't worry viewers, you don't

need to know what we just saw it.

Will scare you for life, but. It'll scar.

Me for life. Yeah, it's good.

Brandon for life. He's never going to let this

down. Nope.

Not like when I bought everything.

Brandon, please, Brandon, please have mercy.

God damn it, it's All Stars. That day I.

Wish I, I wish we'd have been like, doing like recording or

some shit. That would have been really

fucking funny, yeah. I guess we can kind of round up

the topic and just do some bullshit, some bullshitting for

the rest of the time. Bullshitting.

Sorry, sorry if it's a little bit of a different format.

I just, I, I got into, I got too deep into playing Talos

principle for a little bit and I was like, you know what, I got

to make him suffer too. So.

Yeah, no, I mean, it's like, I mean, this is an interesting

topic, don't get me wrong. Oh yeah.

Definitely. I just, I just, I'm my type of

thinking is different than that. And it's just, you know, it's

just how it is. But it's, I tell you some Jesus,

some. Oh my God, he's freaking back.

Yeah. Dude.

How was your? Yeah, dude.

Don't forget you're muted. What do you mean I'm muted?

You turned off your mic. You turned.

Off your mic, didn't you? Oh good God damn, you're quick.

Idiot. Good.

Hey. I mean, I could have not said

anything and it could have been muted this whole time.

Yeah, you. Could have and you should have

and I. Would have laughed it'd.

Be funny if you just in post you just remove his trick.

Yeah, I can. I can just flick the entire

thing. This.

Should be a very silent episode, but.

Just fucking half of it's silence.

Is gone. So what about you, Velocity Boy?

Well, we have kind of rounded off and we're just going to

bullshit because I don't think this way.

I have a little. Bit of a detox you don't.

Think at all you know you don't want to.

Exactly. Exactly.

Make your. Brains hurt.

Have you seen my brain? No.

Do you want to? I'll see your brain when you do

a pre release with me, did you? Want to God damn it?

I'm saying it makes sense. 'Cause you're going to be

thinking with words, yeah. And.

Then my brain. And my.

Brain's going to just fucking crack my skull and explode.

I'll be there. I'll be there to contain it.

It's mind blowing. I'll tell you what though, this

is kind of this is kind of the episode that I wanted with the

mind of me. Well, they're yours all right.

Bye, Brandon. You want it?

You want it? What time were we at I?

Don't know. Last time I checked we were at

53. We were at 57.

I was going to say we could have ended it without him, but you

know. Well.

I guess that's not the case. Are you coming back in or No,

No, he's no, he's going you. Know just leave him be.

OK, he's doing his thing and he's back.

Looks like he's. A wedgie.

He ran in like he has a wedgie. I guess we run a round out by

calling out socials and. Where?

Did you find? Us and forgetting about what you

just fucking said. It was mind blowing.

Mysterious person can you punch him with?

Plank A full forest of a solid block of wood.

Just thinking about it, the son. Of a shepherd, the son of.

A shepherd What's? That.

The Hand of punishment Do you live in a?

Cave. Oh, it's forgiven.

All right, let's get right of this off Brandon.

Where can they find us? Somewhere.

It's it's called. Spotify.

Apple Podcasts. Oh.

God. Geez, there's a lot of them.

Oh God, Sparker. Sparker.

Is that what it's? Called.

We're going to need. A written list out for a lot of

these. I mean like really, wherever you

get your podcasts, like I, I've been kind of working to throw it

wherever so everybody else like listening to it.

God damn it. Chair counter but.

Not even that. No, it's that it.

Is that don't don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah, socials, what are you talking about?

Socials up your ass. Suck it, chair.

Counter God. Damn it, yes, you can find us on

Spotify, Apple Podcasts, I think pod podcast box.

I think that's one of the other ones too.

There's so many. Also.

You can also find us now on threads.

I have to get these in the description.

I got to add some of these, but our Twitter and Blue Sky, I'm

going to have to write these down.

There's a lot of them. Yeah, we got to start running

these down. Hey, chair counter.

Yeah. Yes, there's a lot of them, but

really, you can find us where really any like podcasting ones,

but like the main ones being Apple and Spotify.

Yeah, which Apple now having videos, apparently.

Oh shoot, really. Yeah, they actually did that.

So if we ever decide to do that, I don't know, but it's an option

as well with, you know, both now I guess Spotify and Apple doing

that kind of cool. Yeah.

Well, that's that's like later down the line if it ever

happens. But.

Yeah, it's really just find us anywhere.

You'll see stuff in the description.

Bunch of links so. Awesome.

Oh, I guess that's all we have for today.

This has been plugging for player 4.

Everybody can go ahead and log off and we'll see you in the

next one. Bye everybody.

The Story